DefenderImports
Around the first of April, LAND ROVER EXCHANGE removed three ads placed by a company operating from the web site of DEFENDERIMPORTS.COM. While it turned out, as is described below, that these ads all violated basic LAND ROVER EXCHANGE rules governing the placement of free ads, the more important question that these ads raised was whether or not this company, which was offering imported late model Defenders for sale in the US market, was in fact a bona fide business (as opposed to an elaborate ruse designed to extort money from unsuspecting customers via wire fraud). We don't presume to conclude whether or not DEFENDERIMPORTS is a real importer of used Land Rovers to the USA. We don't know. We do know that our correspondence with DEFENDERIMPORTS (see below) didn't exactly convince us that these folks were on the level.
Moreover, none of LAND ROVER EXCHANGE's users has reported any bona fide business dealings with DEFENDERIMPORTS. And, on the 9th of April 2003, LAND ROVER EXCHANGE received the following letter from an individual who visited the LAND ROVER EXCHANGE web site. This was their report of their dealings with DEFENDERIMPORTS:
Land Rover Exchange Webmaster, Thank you for bringing attention to defenderimports. I fell for the clever website and wired . us dollars to Bank: postbank Address: Sittard, The Netherlands. The Beneficiary name: Isware Trading B.V. Beneficiary Address: Sittard,Netherlands. The 1996 Defender 110 for a total price of 19,795.00 U.S. dollars. The Land Rover was to be trucked up from L.A. last weekend 4-5-03 to my house in Aptos Ca. The driver did not call as Mitch Hanson advised in email. Mr Hanson has not answered my e-mails 4-5-03 and 4-7-03. I am going to contact law enforcment,I will ask my bank who to contact. I was going directly to their website and did not see your warning in time. Mr Hanson said a contract was going to be mailed. I downloaded a contract but it did not have a hand written signature. If you need any more information please contact me.Subsequent research on LAND ROVER EXCHANGE's part indicated that whoever placed the ads for DEFENDERIMPORTS at LAND ROVER EXCHANGE on March 14, 2003 was using an Internet connection based in Thailand. (In addition to being a long way from the UK, the Thai origin for these postings may be noteworthy because a web site was setup during the fall of 2002 which offered to ship extremely inexpensive Defenders to the US if a 10% deposit was wired to Thailand. That web site was later proved to be fraudulent.) Is DEFENDERIMPORTS legitimate? We don't know... but we sure wouldn't give them a dime of our money.
Have you had any business dealings with DEFENDERIMPORTS? If you have, we invite you to visit our feedback page to share your experiences with us. We also know that there are likely to be other folks out there who may be making similar offers and we want to make sure that the users of LAND ROVER EXCHANGE are on guard against the possibility of fraud. If you ever see an ad at LAND ROVER EXCHANGE that seems suspicious, please let us know.
But remember, the best defense is to always use common sense and to be sceptical!
Thank you.
There is no DefenderImports at the Address Listed at Their Web Site
The exact address that Defender Imports is using does not exist. The address does, but not the actual unit number they have listed. Auto Trader UK does have a location in that complex as well as some other high tech businesses. Other residents in the complex have never heard of Defender Imports. [Photos of DefenderImport's claimed home are shown below.]
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Defender Imports Ltd
Unit 14-20 Phoenix Park
Avenue Close, Aston
Birmingham B7 4NU UK
First Letter from LAND ROVER EXCHANGE to DEFENDERIMPORTS:
Dear Mr. Hanson,
Your free ads at LAND ROVER EXCHANGE and your associated account privileges have been temporarily suspended without prejudice pending our receipt of information that will clarify and confirm the legal status of the vehicles you are offering for sale on the LAND ROVER EXCHANGE web site.
In particular, we would appreciate one or more references at the US Customs service who can vouch for you and your company and can confirm that you are complying with all applicable regulations regarding the importation of vehicles under 25 years of age into the USA which are then offered for sale in the USA.
At your web site at
http://www.defenderimports.com/questions.htm
you state:
ABOUT CUSTOMS, ARE THERE ANY FORSEEN OR PAST PROBLEMS THAT I SHOULD WORRY ABOUT?
No, we guarantee there will be no problems with import. We have been doing this for many years and certainly would not take the time and money to attempt to import a vehicle that would have a chance of not getting through customs
Given the Google has only ONE reference to "defenderimports.com", we would appreciate further confirmation regarding your claim that you "have been doing this for many years."
Also, as you know (since you agreed to abide by LAND ROVER EXCHANGE rules before placing your three outstanding ads), LAND ROVER EXCHANGE rules require:
If you are selling a vehicle or parts, the city, state and country should refer to the current location of the item(s) you are selling.
All of your ads list a location of Los Angeles, California. Please provide us with your physical address and telephone number (fax also, please) in Los Angeles.
You should understand that this letter is being sent to you as a courtesy. Your ads were called to our attention by users of the LAND ROVER EXCHANGE service who are familiar with the rules regarding the importation of vehicles of less than 25 years of age into the USA and are concerned that everything you are offering for sale is fully legal and above board.
If you are able to demonstrate that you are in operating in compliance with all applicable federal laws, we will happily reinstate your ads and allow you to continue to enjoy the free services offered at LAND ROVER EXCHANGE. If we don't receive satisfactory confirmation regarding these matters, we will let our advertisers know that we were unable to confirm that your company was operating in accordance with all applicable laws.
LAND ROVER EXCHANGE Webmaster
First Letter from DEFENDERIMPORTS to LAND ROVER EXCHANGE:
Please understand that we are only a small company that reconditions Series and Defender vehicles and we are based in the UK.
Our secondary business is importing to Europe for expedition use as we also have a rental dept in Holland.
Our shop manager came from a Series Conversion shop and had knowledge of conversion to US import. We found that other shops refused to deal with US customers due the requirements necessary to import. So from there we started converting and importing a small number of Series, and later Defenders to the US - without every having a problem!
What we do not understand is how misunderstood the US public is as far as importing. Sure it is not easy, but with the proper conversion, staff and requirements met it is certainly possible. If you need specific answers to your questions regarding the conversion or shipping you will need to speak with our shop manager or our shipping manager. shop@defenderimports.com or ship@defenderimports.com
I must also say, opening our website has to be the biggest mistake we have ever made. We have been selling and importing Defenders for years to established customers without ever having the problems, questions, insults and most recently fraud accusations we have received over the internet. Most of our customers visit us face to face and for myself I do not like the internet experience. We only put the internet site up after recommendation from US customers unable to obtain the 'LR Defender' magazine - our major advertising link.
The site has made us hire extra staff and we just end up with a headache at the end of the day. Sales have actually suffered due to the endless email questions and telephone calls needing to be answered as well as hundreds of false orders. When our attention is to be paid to the website our established customers are actually suffering as we are unable to confirm what vehicles are available or not. One of the biggest criticisms has been requiring a deposit. If a customer walks in our door and orders a vehicle to be reconditioned and converted we require a 50% to start the work. Over the internet we are only requiring 10%. If we started to convert and spec out all vehicles as the orders came in over the internet without a deposit we would be working all day without a real buyer. The deposit just insures us that we have a serious buyer on the other end. Once again I state, I do not like to work over the internet as I much prefer to deal with customers face to face and do not know how to overcome this in this internet age. We only meant for our site to work as a advertising tool not as a ecommerce site. We still much prefer customers to come see us prior to purchase
From this we are no longer advertising over the internet ad spaces and as we are wishing to discontinue such it is not a problem for you to discontinue our ads with you. But let me point out that you certainly do not need to make false accusations regarding our company. I recommend you tell your customers to visit us face to face if they are looking to purchase a vehicle from us. I assure you (as you quoted us) we would not take so much time to convert, ship and import if we were not 100% certain that our vehicles will be fully import legal.
Last note: Defender Imports is only our internet name as our primary company name was not available. However we did reg and trademark "Defender Imports" through the UK registry. Yes our website is new and thus we are not listed heavily on the search engines.
Mitch Hanson
Second Letter from LAND ROVER EXCHANGE to DEFENDERIMPORTS:
Dear Mr. Hanson,
Thank you for taking the time to send us your reponse.
First, you need to understand that the LAND ROVER EXCHANGE users have lost thousands of dollars in the last 12 months alone simply by responding to ads placed in bad faith by folks who weren't who they said they were. The most egregious incident involved someone alleging to offer low mileage recent model Defenders for import into the USA. This incident turned out to be simple wire fraud-- folks were asked to send a 10% deposit to an overseas account to "hold" their vehicle. All of our evidence in this incident was turned over to the US Secret Service and the FBI for them to follow up with a criminal investigation. So please understand as a starting point that this is the world that we live in, at least when it comes to international Internet advertising (i.e., cross border sales).
Second, you haven't addressed my request for your California office address and telephone number. I can only conclude from this fact that you don't in fact have either a physical office in California or a physical space in California containing vehicles in inventory that are ready for sale. If my understanding is correct, then by posting ads which indicated that you did, you violated LAND ROVER EXCHANGE's rules. It also appears from your response that your business is one of acquiring a vehicle for a customer and then rebuilding it and then shipping it overseas for delivery. At LAND ROVER EXCHANGE this is viewed as a business service and doesn't qualify for free advertising. Please note that the LAND ROVER EXCHANGE rules, which you agreed to abide by prior to placing your three free ads, specifically state the following:
The following is a partial list of some of the other kinds ads which are not allowed at this site unless (a) you are a sponsor or (b) such ad is explicitly approved in advance: ... (7) advertisements for Land Rover vehicles or parts which you or your company does not own at the time your ad is placed (for example, free ads for services that don't acquire the vehicle they are advertising until after a buyer has already been found are not allowed at LANDROVEREXCHANGE.COM), (8) advertisements for Land Rover vehicles or parts which are being refinished, rebuilt or refurbished but which are not available for sale until such process has been completed, (9) vehicles offered for sale in any market area if the vehicles themselves are not physically present in that area at the time the ad is placed ...
at:
http://www.landroverexchange.com/rules/
As near as I can tell, although you are free to challenge me on this one, you violated all three of these rules when you placed your three ads at LANDROVEREXCHANGE.COM.
This doesn't make you an unethical business; it does mean that you appear to have violated LAND ROVER EXCHANGE rules and that your account privileges will remain suspended unless you can demonstrate that the vehicles in question which were described in your ads are actually currently available for immediate sale in Los Angels, California with valid title and full customs and EPA paperwork in order.
As to the rest of your letter; some additional comments. If you've been doing business in the UK for years under a different name, why not provide that name both in your response to me as well as at your web site? It's not unreasonable for folks to want to know who you are and be able to do a little research to confirm your business history. Also, while I am not an expert on import procedures, as the manager of the LAND ROVER EXCHANGE web site, I work with sponsors (i.e., advertisers) who are and I have never heard anyone else suggest that there is any easy turnkey approach to import late model Defenders into the USA (particularly, quite frankly, at the price levels suggested in your ads). The folks who have told me this are people who make their living buying, selling, reconditioning, and in some cases importing Land Rovers for sale in the USA. This is not to say that you are wrong or dishonest; it is to say that this is the almost universal experience of the most savvy businesses on this side of the pond. So you should not be surprised if folks in the USA question what you are offerring. There are few Land Rover enthusiasts here in the States who can't tell a baleful tale of some friend or acquaintance who lost a vehicle on the dock to the customs folks--- or who got stuck with a $10,000 to $15,000 retrofitting charge after the vehicle had been seized at the port of entry.
You have not provided me with any customs (or US EPA) references who can confirm your track record in importing vehicles into the USA in compliance with applicable law. It's not my job to follow up with your colleagues on this point since you were the individual who placed the ad representing that your company was fully in compliance with all applicable regulations, not your colleagues.
Finally, you both misquote and misunderstand me when you write: "you certainly do not need to make false accusations regarding our company." I have no intention of making false accusations against your company. I will however say exactly what I indicated that I would say, specifically:
we will let our advertisers know that we were unable to confirm that your company was operating in accordance with all applicable laws
This is very different from stating that your company has done anything which is illegal. We have no evidence of that and we will certainly not make any public statements that imply that we have. Unfortunately, since your letter failed to respond to the key information requests which were contained in my earlier message, I am forced to conclude that we remain unable to confirm that your company is operating in accordance with all applicable laws.
LAND ROVER EXCHANGE Webmaster
Second Letter from DEFENDERIMPORTS to LAND ROVER EXCHANGE:
To: "LAND ROVER EXCHANGE Webmaster"
Subject: Re: Your Advertising at LANDROVEREXCHANGE.COM
1. We do not wish to use our established name at this time on the website in
case our website had problems. We have some good friends that had a
wonderful business here in Birmingham. They started a website and it only
drove them and there entire company into the ground. One of there problems,
which is the same problem we are having now is American competitors try very
hard to discredit the site. It is much easier to disgrace a website through
false postings then it is to promote a website, which is too bad.
2. I thought I made it very clear that we do not have an office in
California as we are based in the UK. We do have a young man working for us
in LA that helps us out with customs, pickup and delivery.
3. We are very sorry that we seem to have broken your rules. I did not
personally place the ads as we hired a few people for a week to help out
with the website advertising. I guess they did not read the instructions
listed carefully. Again very sorry for this.
4. Yes we too have heard horror stories of people trying to import NON
CONVERTED or PARTIALLY CONVERTED vehicles only to get stopped in customs and
then costing up to $20,000 to convert in the US. Again we do all the
converting work prior to shipping ourselves. We never said it was a turnkey
approach as there is a very large process involved and we do not import
newer vehicles.
I am unable to give you specific answers to conversion questions as a
request from George our shop manager. He has personally requested that any
such question be directed to him as much is a trade secret [emphasis added by LAND ROVER EXCHANGE]. Thus I gave you
his email address to contact him directly.
Mitch Hanson
Third Letter from LAND ROVER EXCHANGE to DEFENDERIMPORTS:
Dear Mr. Hanson,
Thanks for your response.
First, I have never before heard of an established business (especially one that depends upon trust and reputation) refusing to associate itself with a web site that it sponsors and which engages in the same basic business as its parent company.
Second, prior to your most recent correspondence, nowhere did you make it clear that you did not have an office in California. Your ads explicitly listed California as the location of your vehicles; in your first response you never responded to my request to provide specifics of where those vehicles were located in Los Angeles, including the address and telephone number for that location, despite my request that you do so.
Third, here are some of the facts that are known to us regarding importing late model Defenders into the USA:
Before 1989, (when the DoT instituted the "Registered Importer" program), any American citizen could bring over ONE (1) non US spec. vehicle without having it converted. (RI's are the only people who can either federalize non US spec vehicles, or certify a non-US spec vehicle). It was known as the "one-time lifetime exemption". This rule was abused by importers, hence the new RI rules. At the same time, the EPA instituted the "ICI" ("Independent Commercial Importer") reg, which regulates business who want to certify vehicles for emissions. Any non-US spec. vehicle MUST be certified by both an RI, and an ICI. It was, and is, very expensive and time consuming. Moreover, only vehicles that are SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR to US spec. vehicles can be imported. Here is the list of vehicles that have been successfully petitioned to be legally imported: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/ELIG012703.html This list changes over time. Do a page search for the Defender 110. You will see that the only model year Defender that qualifies is 1993. The US DOT has confirmed that it is very pricey to legally convert a Defender, since, among other things, the safety cage is very expensive to fit.
Unless DOT publishes factually inaccurate criteria, your non-1993 vehicles simply cannot meet US legal requirements. In addition, even if they did, you would have to demonstrate that your company was (or was working in association with) BOTH a Registered Importer ("RI") and an Independent Commercial Importer ("ICI"). Anyone considering doing business with you would be absolutely justified to request the full business names and addresses of the RI and ICI whom you employ in your sales scheme. Finally, while it is not clear from your advertising that your retrofitting includes adding the expensive safety cage (and your vehicle prices suggest that it may not), without such retrofitting the vehicles will not meet US spec.
You may not appreciate the feedback your website has generated for you but you (and your colleagues) asked for this by attempting to sell a very complex product to one of the most sophisticated buyer bases in the US without providing the most basic evidence that you are in fact qualified to engage in this business.
LAND ROVER EXCHANGE Webmaster